Wed
Oct
12
2005

Raising funds for ministry - like Hillsong??

The Sydney Anglican Synod heard yesterday that we would need to dramatically raise the level of financial giving if the Diocesan Mission is to succeed (at one level, at least).
No problem with that.
The cringe-worthy part comes next, saying that Sydney Anglicans needed to learn: “fundraising lessons from mega churches like Hillsong and Willow Creek”(!)
I’m sorry, but it will be a sad day when Sydney Anglican churches move to the money-obsessed, two sermon (one normal one, one longer one urging you to give more) meetings, using manipulative, guilt-inducing techniques to wring every last dollar out of people.

I’m certain that the speaker at Synod (Zac Veron) did not mean that we in any way adopt the theological position of Hillsong, but I am firm in the belief that we cannot take their money raising techniques without taking on some of their theology. Their teaching is bound up with their understanding of money and material things.
But… let me say that we Sydney Anglican do need to radically reassess our attitude to all things financial.

Our churches are fundamentally appalling at teaching biblically about money and giving. In many cases, a standard ‘giving’ sermon is pulled once a year, usually at the time things are a little tight in the church coffers. But such an approach is a mockery of the bible’s attitude to money and finances.
We urgently need clear, biblical teaching about such matters, we need exemplary standards of accountability and transparency in our local church and Diocesan finances (sadly lacking in many of the former). Our congregations need to be absolutely confident in the financial integrity and management of our money… and above all, we need to pray that the Holy Spirit would move deeply and powerfully in us to produce a great spirit of generosity and trust in God. Only then will our bank accounts, wallets and purses be open so the resources can flow in order to bring more and more people to Christ.

The problem is spiritual, lets not look to poor theology and practise to gloss over it for the sake of a few (million) bucks.

Posted by Neil, 12 October 05
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Comment

  1. I don’t know why we would need to take lessons from Hillsong about giving. Sure, they have a population which is one-tenth of the Sydney diocese, and sure, they get millions in giving, but I think that’s due to a) their extensive focus on giving, and b) the likelihood that their members are wealthier than the average Anglican (due to their concentration in the affluent northwest).

    Sydney Anglicans do need to be more generous, but the lessons we need to learn should not be coming from Hillsong, nor are they going to come from a treasurer who puts up a line graph of current giving and budgetary requirements once a year when things are looking tight.

    — Ben · Oct 13, 04:40 PM · #

  2. Amen Ben!

    — Neil · Oct 13, 07:51 PM · #

  3. A few years ago the guy’s bible study did the “Cash Values” study produced by Matthias Media. It was challenging in that it made you really think how seriously you take the bible’s teaching on money, but never had a GIMME GIMME attitude at the same time. It was particularly interesting doing it in that group because most of us were students or unemployed, but some of us were still heavily convicted on how selfish we are materially.

    Once again it comes back to us – if we aren’t willing to even give up an hour for prayer, as if we would sacrifice our worldy goods…

    — Phone · Oct 13, 08:20 PM · #

  4. Virtually all the stuff from Matthias dealing with this issue has been excellent in its thoroughly biblical focus.
    Somewhere I have a PDF outlining the whole financial ‘code of practice’ and ethos for the St Matthias church. It was first rate and something we (TAC) could urgently implement (speaking as an employee still waiting for his group certificate!)

    — Neil · Oct 14, 01:22 AM · #

  5. I think changing our attitudes towards giving could be accomplished in growth groups, as Phone has said – my first thought was a topical sermon, but people might feel a bit 2×4’d if it’s not done well. However, I think individuals who handle money in the church also need to re-evaluate their attitudes towards finances and giving, particularly as they are usually the ones who tell us that we’re in dire budgetary straits and ask for more cash!

    (not a nasty comment against our money people – just an observation that if we’re going to change our attitudes on giving, those who handle what we give will need to be on-board with that, too)

    — Ben · Oct 14, 06:04 PM · #

  6. There’s a church not far from here where the new minister came in and taught about such matters from the Scriptures in the context of a much broader look at the Christian life.
    At the first church AGM after that, he got up and challenged any who were standing for office (Wardens, PC, etc) that they should be leading by example when it came to giving and they should be prepared to go public with that.
    The result is a HUGE increase in financial commitment in that church – enough to put on another full time worker on 2006.
    All achieved through the work of the Spirit, ‘channelled’ by the sound teaching of God’s word, backed up by sound leadership by the miister, Wardens and PC.

    — Neil · Oct 14, 10:47 PM · #

  7. Neil, you may recall that I pushed once for those standing for office to tell the AVM which Bible study group they attended. That never happened.

    — Simon · Oct 15, 12:54 AM · #

  8. Yep, I do Simon. And it’s sad that it was never acted on.
    I wonder what ‘we’ are so afraid of in issues like this?

    — Neil · Oct 15, 12:54 PM · #

  9. My mother dragged me around for years to boring tired old churches out of touch with modern Australia.
    Thank the Lord I found Hillsong which sparked my soul and opened me up for the Holy Spirit to blow through my rusty chaotic life. Hillsong doesnt preach poverty, and they dont preach falsehoods.
    The Christian message is a message strictly biblically based, placed in modern day language.
    Get over your jelousy and your narrow minded prejudices, and see what your brothers and sisters in Christ have to offer.
    You may be very well suprised.

    — G Chapman · Jan 15, 10:00 AM · #

  10. George,
    If the HS really has turned you around and bought you to Christ, then that it great!
    But it doesn’t change the fact that Hillsong does not teach the Bible well. I know this from experience of regular visits, and occasionally catching a recorded talk, or printed material.
    ‘jealousy’ and ‘narrow minded prejudices’ don’t come into it. Jealousy would assume that I wanted our church do be like Hillsong, which I don’t – ever!
    I would be happy to debate issues of Hillsong’s lack of biblical integrity – but by email is probably better – or you would be welcome to join us any Sunday night to check out our church, and we could talk in person.

    — NeilA · Jan 15, 10:15 AM · #

  11. Hi Neil – not sure what you mean exaclty by “manipulative, guilt-inducing techniques” that HS use … would you mind sharing a few here? Thx

    — dan · Jan 28, 11:23 PM · #

  12. I thought I did in the context of that sentence Dan. On at least two occasions that I can call to mind, the collection ‘rant’ at Hillsong has taken longer than the Bible teaching.
    The emotional manipulation was present in the music and the endless output from the speaker about how God will bless us if we empty our pockets, and thereby seeking to induce a guilt that we aren’t really trusting God if we don’t do as asked.
    It’s woeful stuff that places the extraction of money above the teaching of God’s word and lots of other things.

    — NeilA · Jan 29, 10:08 AM · #

  13. hi Neil – thank you for your reponse, but i’m still unsure of these manipulative techniques you mention …

    Firstly, with the music, i hasten to point out that Anglicans also have music playing when the congregation is asked for their contributions—the “Offertory” hymn—during which the collection plate is passed around (i’m not sure if your church does that, many Anglican churches do) so i’m not sure if you would also say that the Offertory hymn, being musicical in nature, could be considered by some to be manipulative as well?

    Secondly, would you agree with me that this “induced guilt” you refer to sounds more doctrine than technique? I was was hoping to hearing more about their actual techniques. Are there others that are unassocited with doctrine?

    Thirdly, i’m not sure you can imply that if something is done “on two occasions” that it is therefore typical, which is what i think you are implying of HS? If i dropped by an Anglican church that was doing a talk on “giving” (which indeed i have!) wouldn’t you agree that it would be unfair of me to then imply that that church was primarily interested in the “extraction” of my money?

    And finally(!) you mention that HS “places the extraction of money above the teaching of God’s word and lots of other things.” I’d be curious to hear what these “lot of other things” are.

    Well i realise there’s lots here but look forward to your response

    — dan · Jan 30, 12:20 AM · #

  14. 1. Music.
    I doubt you would deny that the music at Hillsong plays a big part in generating the atmosphere. It can be argued that music plays THE major role in sweeping people along, and moving them into a emotional state that (at least for some) is likely to make them more susceptible to suggestion and manipulation. I’ve witnessed people in an almost trance-like state at Hillsong. That may be the Holy Spirit at work, or it may well be plain old emotional manipulation using music. Hard to tell sometimes – which is a worry itself. It’s the sort of thing that Paul warns against in 1 Corinthians.
    Many Anglican churches do sing while taking a collection, but I wasn’t saying the use of music per se was the problem. The issue is music used to manipulate people’s emotions to a specific end. And FWIW, the Sunday night meeting that I pastor doesn’t even take up a collection at all. ;-)

    2. re: The guilt issue: I don’t understand the distinction you are making. Do I think Hillsong pushes the money issue so hard as to induce a guilt response in some people? Yes. Do they use the music and other ‘tools’ to help achieve that? Yes.

    3. I mentioned two occasions that I could bring to mind. I’ve been visiting Hillsong a couple of times a year for maybe 10-12 years. The fundamentals don’t seen to change. Other people whom I talk who also visit have a similar experience.

    4. Off the top of my head: Proper teaching of the gospel, gospel-focussed Christian service, proper pastoral care of members, and so on.

    Please note, that in my original article, I’m just as critical of the Anglican church’s’ approach to matters of finance, so this is not just an anti-Hillsong rant.

    Dan, I’m happy to continue this discussion, but I think you should introduce yourself more fully and state your interest/position/stake in all of this.
    All you’ve done to this point is question my statements.

    — NeilA · Jan 30, 09:56 AM · #

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